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| (Cover of Supplement I Greyhawk by Greg Bell) |
Advanced Labyrinth Lord (and B/X D&D) does not list strength above 19.
I looked at Girdles and potions of giant strength and what they do is make the user attack as a higher hit dice creature rather than increasing the strength score which is pretty inefficient if you want to do something else besides attacking (break a door for example).
One of the ways Gary Gygax started to mess with D&D is the weird Gygaxian 01-00 "exceptional" strength that actually originated in the old "Greyhawk" Supplement I to the original D&D booklets prior to being established in AD&D 1e.
So Greyhawk Supplement I goes like this...
15 +1 to hit/+0 to damage
16 +1 to hit/+1 to damage
17 +2 to hit/+2 to damage
18 +2 to hit/+3 damage
18 (01-50) +2/+3
18 (51-75) +3/+3
18 (76-90) +3/+4
18 (91-99) +3/+5
18 (00) +4/+6
And AD&D is like this...
16 +0 to hit/+1 to damage
17 +1 to hit/+1 to damage
18 +1 to hit/+2 damage
18 (01-50) +1/+3
18 (51-75) +2/+3
18 (76-90) +2/+4
18 (91-99) +2/+5
18 (00) +3/+6
19 +3/+7 (from Deities & Demigods)
20 +3/+8
21 +4/+9
22 +4/+10
23 +5/+11
24 +6/+12
25 +7/+14
Advanced Labyrinth Lord (D&D B/X) basically provides higher bonuses at lower strengths and goes like this...
13-15 +1 to hit/+1 to damage
16-17 +2/+2
18 +3/+3
19 +3/+4
Deities & Demigods strength bumped up by 1 point (i.e. 19 is for 20, 20 is for 21, 21 is for 22, etc.) could eliminate the weirdness from Gygaxian 18 01-00 "exceptional" strength.
So if we extrapolate up into Deities and Demigods...
20 +3/+7 (from Deities & Demigods 19)
21 +3/+8 (from Deities & Demigods 20)
22 +4/+9 (from Deities & Demigods 21)
23 +4/+10 (from Deities & Demigods 22)
24 +5/+11 (from Deities & Demigods 23)
25 +6/+12 (from Deities & Demigods 24)
26 +7/+14 (from Deities & Demigods 25)
That's a big bump in damage for super strength characters, so an alternative is D&D BECMI (BECMI = Basic, Expert, Companion, Masters, Immortals). D&D B/X stopped at 14th level when the new D&D BECMI was released in 1983.
The BEMCI "Immortals" set has a general advanced ability chart like this...
18 +3
19-20 +4
21-23 +5
24-27 +6
28-32 +7
33-38 +8
39-45 +9
46-53 +10
54-62 +11
etc., but there are no other adjustments listed except for Charisma.
Ok so that's what I've learned for higher strength.
Now Advanced Labyrinth Lord doesn't use the encumbrance calculations from AD&D, I just use the Basic Fantasy Roleplaying method of adding 10% capacity for each +1 of ability bonus. (We don't really track encumbrance all that close). So the only other deal is open doors and such.
Labyrinth Lord just uses 2 out of 6 then you add strength bonus, but a 1 always opens and a 6 is always can't open. But that doesn't seem to make sense when you get into the higher strengths
A mashup of Advanced Labyrinth Lord and AD&D might look like this...
13-15 +1/+1, Open Doors 3 in 6, Major Test 13%
16-17 +2/+2, Open Doors 4 in 6, Major Test 20%
18 +3/+3, Open Doors 5 in 6 (1 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 30%
19 +3/+4, Open Doors 7 in 8 (2 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 40%
20 +3/+7, Open Doors 7 in 8 (3 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 50%
21 +3/+8, Open Doors 7 in 8 (3 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 60%
22 +4/+9, Open Doors 9 in 10 (4 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 70%
23 +4/+10, Open Doors 11 in 12 (4 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 80%
24 +5/+11, Open Doors 11 in 12 (5 in 6 magic locked), Major Test 90%
25 +6/+12, Open Doors 19 in 20 (7 in 8 magic locked), Major Test 100%
26 +7/+14, Open Doors 23 in 24 (9 in 10 magic locked), Major Test 100%
Of course, things sort of break down even in the straight AD&D scheme because the monster entries for giants don't include anything like these bonuses for damage from attacks.
So it may be safer (from the adventuring party's perspective) that we don't deal with the sausage so much on strength until PCs get an opportunity for high strength, and just presume (as apparently Gygax did even back in his own AD&D 1e Monster Manual) that monster strength is already factored into their attacks and abilities without a need for exact strength determination.
Note: The Arduin Grimoire II "Welcome to Skull Tower" has a useful strength table. Basically strength bonus to hit maxes out at +4, which seems reasonable. And the additional damage is random, similar to giant damage. Arduin also uses "exceptional" 01-00 strength at 18 for fighter types.
Arduin Strength stats...
17 +2 to hit/+1-3 to damage
18 +3/+1-4
18 (01-25) +4/+1-5
18 (26-50) +4/+1-6
18 (51-75) +4/+1-7
18 (76-00) +4/+1-8
19 +4/+1-10
20 +4/+2-12
21 +4/+2-16
22 +4/+3-18
23 +4/+2-20
24 +4/+4-24
25 +4/+3-30
26 +4/+4-32
Using Advanced Labyrinth Lord with the Arduin theory and "Immortals" chart for damage would come out like this...
18 +3 to hit/+3 to damage
19 +3/+4
20 +4/+4
21 +4/+5
22 +4/+5
23 +4/+5
24 +4/+6
25 +4/+6
26 +4/+6
This all seems reasonable, but the open door stuff begins to get a little arbitrary, like there is no straight formula. Hmmm..... After some aligning between Advanced Labyrinth Lord, the OD&D greyhawk, Deities & Demigods, and Arduin I presented these 2 options for my group to see if either sticks.
First is to use Advanced Labyrinth Lord as-is up to 19, then use Deities & Demigods strength for 19-25, but count it as 20-26 because Advanced Labyrinth Lord gives better bonuses at lower scores (similar to OD&D/Greyhawk). Do end up with an extra bump in damage from 19 to 20 strength.
Second is combine Advanced Labyrinth Lord with Greyhawk and Arduin where higher strength gives variable damage bonuses, but has the attraction that the variable bonuses match up with the damage giants do in the AD&D Monster Manual (although giants would now be rated at higher strengths to align with the Arduin strength variable damage).
Advanced Labyrinth Lord Strength Ability Progression Greyhawk/AD&D
3 = -3 hit/-3 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%
4-5 = -2 hit, -2 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%
6-8 = -1 hit/-1 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%
9-12 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%
13-15 = +1 hit/+1 dam, 3 in 6 door, Major task 10%
16-17 = +2 hit/+2 dam, 4 in 6 door, Major task 25%
18 = +3 hit/+3 dam, 5 in 6 door, Major task 30%
19 = +3 hit/+4 dam, 7 in 8 door (1 in 6 magic), Major task 40%
20 = +3 hit/+7 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 50% (Hill Giant)
21 = +3 hit/+8 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 60% (Stone Giant)
22 = +4 hit/+9 dam, 9 in 10 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 70% (Frost Giant)
23 = +4 hit/+10 dam, 11 in 12 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 80% (Fire Giant)
24 = +5 hit/+11 dam, 11 in 12 door (5 in 6 magic), Major task 90% (Cloud Giant)
25 = +6 hit/+12 dam, 19 in 20 door (7 in 8 magic), Major task 100% (Storm Giant)
26 = +7 hit/+14 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100% (Titan)
Advanced Labyrinth Lord Strength Ability Progression Greyhawk/AD&D/Arduin
3 = -3 hit/-3 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 5%
4 = -2 hit, -2 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 6%
5 = -2 hit, -2 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 7%
6 = - hit/-1 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 8%
7 = -1 hit/-1 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 9%
8 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 1 in 6 door, Major task 0%, Grap 10%
9 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%, Grap 15%
10 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%, Grap 20%
11 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%, Grap 25%
12 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%, Grap 30%
13 = +0 hit/+0 dam, 2 in 6 door, Major task 2%, Grap 35%
14 = +1 hit/+1 dam, 3 in 6 door, Major task 10%, Grap 40%
15 = +1 hit/+1 dam, 3 in 6 door, Major task 10%, Grap 45%
16 = +2 hit/+1-2 dam, 4 in 6 door, Major task 25%, Grap 50%
17 = +2 hit/+1-3 dam, 4 in 6 door, Major task 25%, Grap 55%
18 = +3 hit/+1-4 dam, 5 in 6 door, Major task 30%, Grap 60%
19 = +4 hit/+1-10 dam, 7 in 8 door (1 in 6 magic), Major task 40%, Grap 95%
20 = +4 hit/+2-12 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 50%, Grap 100%
21 = +4 hit/+2-16 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 60%, Grap100% (Hill Giant)
22 = +4 hit/+3-18 dam, 9 in 10 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 70%, Grap 100% (Stone Giant)
23 = +4 hit/+2-20 dam, 11 in 12 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 80%, Grap 100%
24 = +4 hit/+4-24 dam, 11 in 12 door (5 in 6 magic), Major task 90%, Grap 100% (Frost Giant)
25 = +4 hit/+3-30 dam, 19 in 20 door (7 in 8 magic), Major task 100%, Grap 100% (Fire Giant)
26 = +4 hit/+4-32 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grap 100%
27 = +4 hit/+6-36 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grap 100% (Cloud Giant)
28 = +4 hit/+4-40 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grap 100% (Storm Giant)
29 = +4 hit/+4-48 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grap 100% (Titan)
Final recommendations on Strength, AKA "Gary Why Do You Fuck With Us?!!!"
Ok, here's what I think, just to be consistent with the old AD&D books for high strength.
Treat Advanced Labyrinth Lord 19 strength as "Fighter Type 18 Exceptional Strength" and then just move on from there so it matches up exactly with anything we use from AD&D. (Again the reason to consider this is because D&D B/X & Labyrinth Lord does not address strengths higher than 19.)
Essentially, follow Advanced Labyrinth Lord (really just the OD&D, B/X, and "Greyhawk" supplement strength) through to strength 18. Then all fighter types with strength 18 use the 18 "exceptional" (really Advanced Labyrinth Lord 19). Then from 19 on just follow AD&D so it all matches up.
The only thing to change is Advanced Labyrinth Lord strength 19 to an 18 "exceptional" strength for fighter types. There is still a big bump from 18 to 19, but that was there in the rules anyway. Anyone with a 19 strength would use the 19 strength from Deities & Demigods (change damage bonus from +4 to +7, but remember, all non-fighter types per the Greyhawk and AD&D rules cannot naturally have strength greater than 18).
You could follow the AD&D strength tables exactly (with the fighter 01-00 "exceptional" strength), but then everybody in an Advanced Labyrinth Lord game with strength less than 18 (00) would see their bonuses go down. And who wants that? ;~)
So I suggest a strength table would look like this...
Advanced Labyrinth Lord Strength Ability Progression with Greyhawk/AD&D
3 = -3 to hit/-3 to dam, 1 in 6 open door, Major task 0%
4-5 = -2 to hit, -2 to dam, 1 in 6 open door, Major task 0%
6-8 = -1 to hit/-1 to dam, 1 in 6 open door, Major task 0%
9-12 = +0 to hit/+0 to dam, 2 in 6 open door, Major task 2%
13-15 = +1 to hit/+1 to dam, 3 in 6 open door, Major task 10%
16-17 = +2 to hit/+2 to dam, 4 in 6 open door, Major task 25%
18 = +3 to hit/+3 to dam, 5 in 6 open door, Major task 30%
18 "Exceptional" = +3 to hit/+4 to dam, 7 in 8 open door (1 in 6 magic), Major task 40%
19 = +3 to hit/+7 to dam, 7 in 8 open door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 50% (Hill Giant)
20 = +3 to hit/+8 to dam, 7 in 8 open door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 60% (Stone Giant)
21 = +4 to hit/+9 to dam, 9 in 10 open door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 70% (Frost Giant)
22 = +4 to hit/+10 to dam, 11 in 12 open door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 80% (Fire Giant)
23 = +5 to hit/+11 to dam, 11 in 12 open door (5 in 6 magic), Major task 90% (Cloud Giant)
24 = +6 to hit/+12 to dam, 19 in 20 open door (7 in 8 magic), Major task 100% (Storm Giant)
25 = +7 to hit/+14 to dam, 23 in 24 open door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100% (Titan)
The alternatives are to cap strength at 19 for all PCs (monsters pretty much have their strength figured in damage and all, and giant strength girdles and potions would be based on hit dice instead of strength ability), or use Advanced Labyrinth Lord to strength 19 then bump up AD&D +1 to start at 20 rather than 19.
My actual preference would be to use the Arduin method that caps strength to-hit at +4, but then uses variable damage bonuses similar to giant-type damage, but that would be a departure from OD&D, B/X, and AD&D. If I ever run an Arduin game though...
The high-strength results (Adv. Labyrinth Lord plus Arduin, cross referencing strength score by natural damage) would look like this...
17
+2 hit/+2 dam, 4 in 6 door, Major task 25%, Grapple 55%, Break wall = 4" stone.
18
+3 hit/+3 dam, 5 in 6 door, Major task 30%, Grapple 60%, Break wall = 5" stone.
19 (Ogre, AD&D)
+3 hit/+4 dam, 7 in 8 door (1 in 6 magic), Major task 40%, Grapple 95%, Break wall = 1' stone.
20 (Hill Giant, Arduin)
+4 hit/+2-12 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 50%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 2' stone.
21 (Hill Giant, AD&D; Stone Giant, Arduin)
+4 hit/+2-16 dam, 7 in 8 door (3 in 6 magic), Major task 60%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 3' stone.
22 (Stone Giant, AD&D; Titan, Arduin)
+4 hit/+3-18 dam, 9 in 10 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 70%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 4' stone.
23 (Frost Giant, AD&D; Cyclops, Arduin)
+4 hit/+2-20 dam, 11 in 12 door (4 in 6 magic), Major task 80%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 5' stone.
24
+4 hit/+4-24 dam, 11 in 12 door (5 in 6 magic), Major task 90%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 6' stone.
25 (Fire Giant, AD&D; Frost Giant, Arduin)
+4 hit/+3-30 dam, 19 in 20 door (7 in 8 magic), Major task 100%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 7' stone.
26 (Fire Giant, Arduin)
+4 hit/+4-32 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 8' stone.
27 (Cloud Giant, AD&D/Arduin; Cyclops, AD&D)
+4 hit/+6-36 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 9' stone.
28 (Storm Giant, AD&D/Arduin)
+4 hit/+4-40 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 1" steel.
29 (Titan, AD&D; Hell Giant, Arduin)
+4 hit/+4-48 dam, 23 in 24 door (9 in 10 magic), Major task 100%, Grapple 100%, Break wall = 2" steel
Oh for fuck's sake...
Here is the proposed table with the weight allowances added (base 40 lbs non encumbered, 160 lbs max, -20% per each neg bonus and +10% per each pos bonus). Also the relative strengths of various giants by their damage bonus.
Strength Hit Dam Door Magic Encumber Max
1 -4 -4 1 in 6 0 8 lbs 32 lbs
2 -3 -3 1 in 6 0 16 lbs 64 lbs
3 -3 -3 1 in 6 0 16 lbs 64 lbs
4 -2 -2 1 in 6 0 24 lbs 96 lbs
5 -2 -2 1 in 6 0 24 lbs 96 lbs
6 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs
7 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs
8 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs
9 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs
10 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs
11 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs
12 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs
13 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 44 lbs 176 lbs
14 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 44 lbs 176 lbs
15 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 44 lbs 176 lbs
16 +2 +2 4 in 6 0 48 lbs 192 lbs
17 +2 +2 4 in 6 0 48 lbs 192 lbs
18 +3 +3 5 in 6 0 52 lbs 208 lbs
19 +3 +4 7 in 8 1 in 6 56 lbs 224 lbs
20 +3 +5 7 in 8 3 in 6 60 lbs 240 lbs
21 +3 +6 7 in 8 3 in 6 64 lbs 256 lbs
22 +4 +7 9 in 10 4 in 6 68 lbs 272 lbs Hill Giant
23 +4 +8 11 in 12 4 in 6 72 lbs 288 lbs Stone Giant
24 +4 +9 11 in 12 5 in 6 76 lbs 304 lbs Fire Giant
25 +4 +10 19 in 20 7 in 8 80 lbs 320 lbs Frost Giant
26 +4 +11 23 in 24 9 in 10 84 lbs 336 lbs Cloud Giant
27 +4 +12 23 in 24 9 in 10 88 lbs 352 lbs Storm Giant
28 +4 +13 23 in 24 9 in 10 92 lbs 368 lbs
29 +4 +14 23 in 24 9 in 10 96 lbs 384 lbs Titan
30 +4 +15 23 in 24 9 in 10 100 lbs 400 lbs
Here is the FINAL table we will be using for higher LL strengths in our game with the weight allowances added (base 40 lbs non encumbered, 160 lbs max, -20% per each negative bonus point and add weight carried an OSRIC mod). Also the relative strengths of various giants by their damage bonus.
Strength Hit Dam Door Magic Encumber Max Maj.
1 -4 -4 1 in 6 0 8 lbs 32 lbs 0%
2 -3 -3 1 in 6 0 16 lbs 64 lbs 0%
3 -3 -3 1 in 6 0 16 lbs 64 lbs 0%
4 -2 -2 1 in 6 0 24 lbs 96 lbs 0%
5 -2 -2 1 in 6 0 24 lbs 96 lbs 0%
6 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs 0%
7 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs 0%
8 -1 -1 1 in 6 0 32 lbs 128 lbs 1%
9 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs 1%
10 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs 2%
11 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs 2%
12 0 0 2 in 6 0 40 lbs 160 lbs 4%
13 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 50 lbs 200 lbs 7%
14 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 50 lbs 200 lbs 10%
15 +1 +1 3 in 6 0 50 lbs 200 lbs 13%
16 +2 +2 4 in 6 0 60 lbs 240 lbs 16%
17 +2 +2 4 in 6 0 60 lbs 240 lbs 20%
18 +3 +3 5 in 6 0 75 lbs 300 lbs 25%
19 +3 +4 7 in 8 1 in 6 90 lbs 360 lbs 35%
20 +3 +5 7 in 8 3 in 6 115 lbs 460 lbs 40%
21 +3 +6 7 in 8 3 in 6 140 lbs 560 lbs 45%
22 +4 +7 9 in 10 4 in 6 165 lbs 660 lbs 50% Hill Giant
23 +4 +8 11 in 12 4 in 6 190 lbs 760 lbs 60% Stone Giant
24 +4 +9 11 in 12 5 in 6 240 lbs 960 lbs 70% Fire Giant
25 +4 +10 19 in 20 7 in 8 340 lbs 1360 lbs 80% Frost Giant
26 +4 +11 23 in 24 9 in 10 490 lbs 1960 lbs 90% Cloud Giant
27 +4 +12 23 in 24 9 in 10 540 lbs 2160 lbs 100% Storm Giant
28 +4 +13 23 in 24 9 in 10 640 lbs 2560 lbs 100%
29 +4 +14 23 in 24 9 in 10 790 lbs 3160 lbs 100% Titan
30 +4 +15 23 in 24 9 in 10 940 lbs 3760 lbs 100%
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